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  • #285105
    edguitar
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    papupapa escribió:

    Hay un monton de bancos quebrados en Inglaterra producto de tanta especulacion sin limites y quien a terminado salvandoles el pellejo ha sido el gobierno y los tax payers. El sistema financiero no quiere la intervencion del gobierno ni los bancos tampoco pero a la hora de la crisis salen a rogarles al "papa estado" para que los ayude….que comodo! el estado es malo para unas vainas y buenas para otras.

    Indeed, Argentina just passed a bill to reposses pensions and retirements accounts in order to avoid defaulting in their payments. That means whatever money you had in private investments, stocks, derivatives, and industry backed securities are all gone..!

    In the 1930’s Franklin Delano Roosevelt through the Federal Reserve passed a bill to confiscate privately owned tangible gold possesions. That was truely an illegal action, but it goes to show you that governments have impossed draconians measures to aliviate economics problems that they themselves created in the first place.

    I’m completely flabbergasted at the degree of naiveness that some people show, especially Latin Americans…we know this, we lived throught it, it should not be a surprise issue to anyone of us. I got out of the country in 1989, just a few days after Carlos Andres’s swering-in ceremony. I have watched how this preposterous behavior which was a thirld world country common denominator is slowly but surely becoming the norm among all nations regardless of their status.

    Europe has a decent share of geopolitical and economical, first hand experinces in the matter, hence WWI & WWII. It is my opinion, that if the Euro-zone was be ALL THAT, the Britons would have jumped in the wagon long ago. However, they along some scandinavian countries seem to be exercising extreme caution when it comes to joint the rather famous EU. Spain, Italy, and Greece have manifested through bipartisan groups in their respective congress or parliament that the possibility for a break out is growing every day……go figures. On the other side of the Atlantic, the Americans and Canadians have made their bed and are now laying down with their Europeans counter-parts, but like you said before…it is all hush hush in the media. However, Europeans still have some reliable, independant, and objective media outlets; whereas the Americans are screwed with their CNN, NBC, and other corporate crooks…..if you get my grip!

    Later

    #285106
    Erikelrojo
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    Eduardo Chavez escribió:

    it goes to show you that governments have impossed draconians measures to aliviate economics problems that they themselves created in the first place.

    Eduardo, podrias elaborar un poco mas en esa frase, y podrias relacionarla con la recesion que esta ocurriendo hoy en dia? Especialmente en esta frase: "that they themselves created in the first place"

    Gracias

    #285107
    edguitar
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    hatch123 escribió:

    Eduardo, podrias elaborar un poco mas en esa frase, y podrias relacionarla con la recesion que esta ocurriendo hoy en dia? Especialmente en esta frase: "that they themselves created in the first place"

    Every central bank in the world exercises the fractional reserve banking. This system allows private banks to lend 10 times the money they have in actaul reserves without tangible assets to back it up. According to the Austrian school of economics, the best way to mantain a sustainable growth is by issuing money backed by gold or silver. We know this system as the Gold Standard which most countries conviniently do not exercise anymore. When I was a little kid, I remember having Bolivares, Lochas, and other coin denominations minted in LEI900 silver. As time passed by, these gold and silver coins disapeared from circulation. The reason for that being was the constraint in currency injection into the market that has some actual or tangible backing. From that point on, every country in world managed their economies pretty much the same way

    As we arrived into the 1940’s, the Bretton Woods Agreement positioned the dollar as the world currency. By the end of Richard Nixon’s administration, the U.S. had to imperativaly take the dollar out of the Gold Standard because 1) They were running out of gold claims on U.S. denominated assets and 2) They (U.S. govn’t) were already at the brink of financial collapse. With the financial scenario in such decay, private bankers decided to pound on the U.S. congress with lots of lobbying and such. In the meantime, the governments of our countries in the south were being either imploded or puppets were being positioned in power to ensure bankers to gain foreign assets for pennies on the pound, meaning dirt cheap. These same financial entities turned around and started to practise their voracious and depredatory practises in industrialized nations at the end of the oil embargo in the 1970’s.

    So as you can see, bankers for the most part have contributed in the economic demise of the entire planet. And in no secrete that they have engineered with the most intelligent and effective way a system of absolute control. Now, most people might debate what I’m saying, however, think of El Caracazo, and the nuances behind it. Who was running what, and who were the figures in that episode…..Anyway, I will elaborate more as you ask. I’m afraid that I might digress simply because this issue is not new……it’s been happening for quite some time and this deprecion was long over due.

    #285108
    Erikelrojo
    Miembro

    Eduardo,

    Lo que acabas de explicar confirma lo que se explica en este docuemntal:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

    La primera parte de este documental es muy interesante, veanlo cuando puedan.

    Si bien no hay que creer en todo lo que dice este documental, la primera parte donde se explica como se crea el dinero tiene mucho sentido y explica el por qué las cosas estan así hoy por hoy. Lo peor de todo es que se quiere arreglar esto imprimiendo mas billetes "from thin air" como se explica en la pelicula, y esto de verdad que preocupa mucho.

    #285109
    edguitar
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    hatch123 escribió:

    Si bien no hay que creer en todo lo que dice este documental, la primera parte donde se explica como se crea el dinero tiene mucho sentido y explica el por qué las cosas estan así hoy por hoy. Lo peor de todo es que se quiere arreglar esto imprimiendo mas billetes "from thin air" como se explica en la pelicula, y esto de verdad que preocupa mucho.

    Well, when I went to college and took my first class of Principles of Macroeconomics, one of the main topics we covered was the correlation between money supply and inflation. Although very instructive, it confirmed what I once expericenced back in the Venezuela of 89′. When the IMF and World bank told the rather unfamous, former president, Carlos Andrez Perez that the plan of austerity had to be implemented; little did we know the implications of such measures….now that was my first real macroeconomics class I ever had.

    The Euro is also a fallacy. Needless to say, that the Euro has no tangible backing whatsoever. In other words, the Euro just like the U.S. dollar or any other currency in the world is a fiat currency with just psychological value and that’s all it is. So the speculation that the Euro, British Pound, or U.S. dollar might have some sort of real value is ficticious. This is no made up stuff, so a lot of what we hear and most of what might seem rather delusional is our own fear of facing reality….then again that’s grain from a different bag.

    I think that the recent events after the U.S. and British bailout are proof, that bankers have always been the destructive parasite that has destroyed the world ten times over. Not one head has rolled, yet govn’t has take it upon themselves to overwrite the people’s decision and corner Congress. I have no idea of how old your are, but most people whose parents or grand parents are still alive can asses that credit did not exist back in the days. However, credit as we know it has become a neccesity and you must live with it. Now digressing just a bit, I must say that slavery never ceased to exist…..we just felt under a different system, thus creating a more vivid illusion. Credit is the weapon of choice to control what you do, what you eat, what you buy, and everything that might give the appearance that you’re indeed excersicing free will.

    As a final note, to those who might feel offended for my English; my deepest apologies. But after 20 plus years as an expatriate, English has become literally second nature. I can project my ideas better and I don’t spend three hours on my PC trying to type my thoughts.

    #285110
    Hermesa
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    Eduardo Chavez escribió:

    Hermesa creo que una cosa es lo que los documentos oficiales dicen y otra cosa es lo que en la practica se ejecuta. A todas estas, tienes que ver los estatutos del Tratado de Lisboa y la constitucion Europea. En Norte America esta el Nafta y ITFNA. El estado puede bajo estatutos y clausulas indiscretas despropiar a sus ciudadanos bajo el pretexto de seguridad nacional o terrorismo.

    Existe mucha inocencia en la poblacion cuando el Gobierno promueve estos dichos trataos hay que tener mucho hojo y no ser tan inocentes. Yo no se si eres Venezolano(a) pero me asombra la cantidad de confianza que plasmas a travex de tus palabras y viniendo de un pais Latinoamericano. Creo que nosotros ya tenemos bastante experiencia al respecto.

    Soy española y vivo en Madrid.

    Tal vez creías que soy americana y por eso me has interpretado mal.

    La libertad de empresa y el derecho a la propiedad privada están reflejados en el título I de la Constitución española y se respetan a rajatabla. Es más, si un banco gana mucho, mejor para él. Si un banco gana "poco", le damos dinero públco, o sea, dinero de todos.

    #285111
    Enratonao
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    Eduardo Chavez escribió:

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    Thanks, Eduardo, this is very interesting reading. I am beginning to enjoy this topic very much.

    #285112
    edguitar
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    Hermesa escribió:

    Soy española y vivo en Madrid.

    Tal vez creías que soy americana y por eso me has interpretado mal.

    La libertad de empresa y el derecho a la propiedad privada están reflejados en el título I de la Constitución española y se respetan a rajatabla. Es más, si un banco gana mucho, mejor para él. Si un banco gana "poco", le damos dinero públco, o sea, dinero de todos.

    Hola Hermesa!

    No te interprete mal. De hecho, reafirmo lo que dije anteriormente basado en la idea de los fundamentos economicos son los mismo en todo el mundo. Creo que mucha gente, sin intencion de ofender, todavia creen en la buena fe del el gobierno que rigen sus paises. Como te explico, los Europeos al igual que los Americanos se estan creyendo sus propias mentiras. Lo que yo he dicho es posts anteriores es que la Constitucion Americana, Espanola, o de cualquier otro pais no detiene a nada…..dejame preguntarte algo. Cuanta fe tienes tu en el gobierno espanol?

    #285113
    pepegril
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    Eduardo Chavez escribió:

    Quote

    pepegril escribió:

    ¿Que to participo solamente para llevarte la contraria? No es el caso

    A ver… el los foros la gente da sus puntos de vista, y yo estoy dando el mio que a todas luces no concuerda con el tuyo; yo no pretendo que me des la razón si no piensas como yo, pero lo que no está bien es que digas a la ligera que yo solamente participo para llevarte la contraria.

    Un poco más de respeto, por favor

    En todo caso me da

    Respeto? Aqui nadie te esta faltanfo ningun respeto. Sobre sensibilidad puede que haya tocado el argumento de argumentar solo por argumentar. A mi me encanta escuchar otros puntos de vista, pero tal y cuando yo no me vea repitiendo lo mismo. Muchas vecez me encuentro en situaciones en las cuales la otra persona pone palabras en mi boca. En lo que estoy de acuerdo contigo es en la idea de que todos tenemos diferentes tipos de opiniones.

    Vale, entonces seamos más cuidadosos cuando emitamos juicios sobre lo que motiva a otras personas a expresarse. ¿No te parece?

    #285114
    edguitar
    Miembro

    Pepegril!

    Creo que estas llevando esto fuera de proporciones. Primero, yo no me voy a disculpar por algo que no he hechoy segundo lee con cuidado lo que hemos escrito. Estas en una retorica que no tiene sentido.

    #285115
    edguitar
    Miembro

    ‘Grimmest’ Davos Ever Brings Anger, Finger-Pointing at Bankers

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    By James Hertling and Simon Kennedy

    Feb. 2 (Bloomberg) — The theme of the World Economic Forum’s annual meeting was “Shaping the Post-Crisis World.” Unfortunately, the assembled executives, policy makers and do- gooders were stuck in the here and now.

    The search for scapegoats and the worst economic prospects since World War II resulted in a gathering marked by fear, anger and bitterness, a far cry from the usual search for consensus.

    Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stormed out of a panel discussion and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin hectored the U.S. as the font of the world’s economic woes. Almost everyone blamed the few bankers who showed up for the near-collapse of the financial system.

    Attendees were “less reluctant to criticize, and sometimes very vocally criticize, the U.S. and its capitalist system because of the problems we’re having,” said David Rubenstein, co-founder of the Carlyle Group, who first came to Davos a decade ago. “Maybe that’s deserved, but it’s a big change.”

    “Everyone I spoke to says it’s the grimmest Davos they’ve ever been to,” said Kenneth Rogoff, professor of economics at Harvard University and a World Economic Forum regular since 2002. “The mood has been very depressed. It’s a low-burn depression.”

    Another big change was the virtual absence of Wall Street figures among the 2,500 delegates at the conference, which ended yesterday.

    ‘Stupid Things’

    JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon was the only U.S. banking chief who showed up. He made a concession to the mood of this year’s event by accepting some blame for the collapse that has led to more than $1 trillion of writedowns. He deflected the rest at regulators.

    “God knows, some really stupid things were done by American banks and by American investment banks,” Dimon said. “To policy makers, I say: ‘Where were they?’”

    That attitude was tough for some to swallow. At one session, a call for curbs on bankers’ bonuses was met with applause by sections of the audience.

    “We should not trust these bankers,” said Nassim Nicholas Taleb, author of the best-selling book “The Black Swan.” “Look at their track record. The only way to stop the process is for the government to own those banks.”

    With the world’s elite nursing a collective hangover after the greatest era of global prosperity came to an end, there was enough bile to go around.

    Erdogan’s Walkout

    Erdogan stunned a packed house on Jan. 29 by walking out on a debate on last month’s war in the Gaza Strip. He claimed that the session’s moderator didn’t give him equal time with Israeli President Shimon Peres and vowed never to return to Davos. By the time he met the press an hour later, he promised to reconsider.

    Anyone who thought Barack Obama’s election as president would temper criticism of U.S. policies would have been disappointed. Economists questioned his $819 billion stimulus plan, urged him to deliver another rescue package for banks and fretted about soaring national debt.

    “People are looking for the solution but don’t yet have the question formulated,” Arif Naqvi, chief executive officer of Abraaj Capital Ltd., which manages $7.5 billion, said.

    The need for action wasn’t in debate. Away from the slopes, U.S. stocks capped their worst ever January, the International Monetary Fund forecast the weakest global growth in 60 years and companies from Starbucks Corp. to Caterpillar Inc. cut jobs.

    Deepening Recession

    That led many attendees to predict they’ll still be in a funk when they return in 2010.

    “We’re in a multi-multi year problem,” Howard Lutnick, chief executive officer of Cantor Fitzgerald LP., said. “We’ve weathered horrible times before. That’s what lies ahead of us now.”

    Delegates also took turns bashing America’s policies and its role in the world.

    Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and Putin cited the U.S. for leading the world into recession in back-to-back speeches on the opening day.

    “Just a year ago, American delegates speaking from this rostrum emphasized the U.S. economy’s fundamental stability and its cloudless prospects,” Putin said.

    To cap it off, Putin dismissed a query from audience member Michael Dell, head of personal-computer maker Dell Inc., about what the technology community could do to assist Russia.

    “We don’t need any help. We are not invalids,” Putin said.

    Balanced Tone?

    The spats gave this year’s conference a more balanced tone, said Bahraini banker Khalid Abdulla-Janahi, who remembers then- Vice President Dick Cheney “hammering the Russians, the Iranians and many others” during his 2004 visit.

    “This time, it was a two-way street,” said the chairman of Ithmaar Bank BSC. “We heard Putin hammering the West and Erdogan standing up to Peres. That’s how it should be.”

    Those who made it to the five-day Alpine retreat insisted that they weren’t wasting their time or their money –and they really didn’t mind the muted tone of the event’s party circuit.

    “People are conscious about throwing parties or even smiling this year,” said Martin Sorrell, chief executive of WPP Group Plc. “It’s become a little too big, but it’s never been more relevant.”

    #285116
    pepegril
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    Eduardo Chavez escribió:

    Pepegril!

    Creo que estas llevando esto fuera de proporciones. Primero, yo no me voy a disculpar por algo que no he hechoy segundo lee con cuidado lo que hemos escrito. Estas en una retorica que no tiene sentido.

    Citándote, a propósito de leer con cuidado

    "siento que argumentas nada mas que para llevar la contraria, si ese es el caso….entonces vamos a darte la razon….tu la distes en clavo, todo que que dices es cierto.

    Chiao. "

    Todo hubiese estado dentro de los parámetros de un intercambio de puntos de vista normal y corriente, de no ser por esa expresión, con tinte de sarcasmo fuera de lugar.

    #285117
    edguitar
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    pepegril escribió:

    O sea, tú lo que estás diciendo es "como el mundo está jod… quédese cada quien en su país porque más vale malo conocido que bueno por conocer"

    Esa premisa no vale para todo el mundo, es decir, si una persona estima que tiene una ventaja comparativa que le vale más en un país distinto que en el suyo propio, no se va a poner a esperar a que "pase la crisis mundial" para decidirse a tratar de sacar provecho a su situación, que de paso ni los expertos tiene put… idea de cuando va a pasar la bendita crisis si es que pasa. Obviamente que esta situación mundial sin precedentes pone a pensar a cualquiera, pero yo creo que al final el que conscientemente crea que está en buena situación para emigrar debería intentarlo.

    No seas hipocrita pepegril…estas fueron tus primeras palabras, incluso antes de preguntar…dime ahora quien fue sarcastico primero. Como te dije antes, tu solo argumentas de hobby y nada mas.

    #285118
    pepegril
    Miembro
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    Eduardo Chavez escribió:

    Quote

    pepegril escribió:

    O sea, tú lo que estás diciendo es "como el mundo está jod… quédese cada quien en su país porque más vale malo conocido que bueno por conocer"

    Esa premisa no vale para todo el mundo, es decir, si una persona estima que tiene una ventaja comparativa que le vale más en un país distinto que en el suyo propio, no se va a poner a esperar a que "pase la crisis mundial" para decidirse a tratar de sacar provecho a su situación, que de paso ni los expertos tiene put… idea de cuando va a pasar la bendita crisis si es que pasa. Obviamente que esta situación mundial sin precedentes pone a pensar a cualquiera, pero yo creo que al final el que conscientemente crea que está en buena situación para emigrar debería intentarlo.

    No seas hipocrita pepegril…estas fueron tus primeras palabras, incluso antes de preguntar…dime ahora quien fue sarcastico primero. Como te dije antes, tu solo argumentas de hobby y nada mas.

    ¿Sabes que?

    Tú eres el típico opinador de foros que se la da de sabelotodo, que cree que en cuanto foro se anota es su coto de caza particular, y que de paso se la tira de sobrado cuando alguien "osa" contradecirle.

    Chao chigüire…

    #285119
    edguitar
    Miembro

    No lo se todo, pero si se algo….lo que acabas de decir demuestra quien eres. Una vez desenmascarado, no te queda mas insultar.

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