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  • Este debate tiene 12 respuestas, 2 mensajes y ha sido actualizado por última vez el hace 16 años, 6 meses por Invitado MQI.
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  • #255485
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    Saludos:

    Esto lo consegui el foro de los britanicos. La verdad no veo la diferencia entre Oz y USA segun lo expresado por el autor. La verdad habria que experimentarlo en carne propia, sin embargo algo si es cierto mejor que Venezuela un rato largo.

    que lo disfruten.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-967265,00.html
    —————————————————————————————-

    The Sunday Times – Review

    January 18, 2004

    Exodus from Oz — it’s grim down under
    Germaine Greer loves her Australian homeland but, she says, like many of her compatriots she can’t bear to live there

    English people think of Australia as a land of beaches and winter sunshine where in a cold and stormy month like this it must be heaven to live. Yet every month brings news of another Australian celebrity who has decamped (Nicole Kidman, Kylie Minogue, Baz Luhrmann to name but a few). The international movie industry is illuminated by Australian stars, none of whom lives in Australia — unless you count the New Zealander Russell Crowe, who pretends to live in Australia.
    Australian professionals of all kinds are popping up at the top of their trees in other countries; they are vice-chancellors of British universities, media executives, account managers, scientists, surgeons, lawyers, dons, willingly enduring the manifold discomforts of life in Britain when they could enjoy the lifestyle on which Australia prides itself.

    This year 1m Australians out of a population of 20m are living outside Australia. Many Europeans who have given the best years of their lives to Australia have decided to cut their losses and return to the other side of the world. Go to Greece and you’ll be astonished at how many Greeks speak fluent idiomatic Australian. So why do so many abandon the “you beaut” country? What can be the problem?

    I can best explain from my own point of view, as someone who left Australia in 1964, never to return. (Here goes my chance of an Order of Australia.) In fact I do return. I probably spend more time in Australia than Crowe does, but I always come back to Blighty.

    Make no mistake. I love Australia with a fierce passion that churns my guts and makes my eyes burn with tears of rage and frustration. But I would rather not be there.

    For the vast majority, life in Australia is neither urban nor rural but suburban. The reality is not Uluru or the Sydney Opera House but endless, ever-expanding replications of Ramsay Street that spread out as rapidly as oilstains on water, further and further from the tiny central business districts of the state capitals.

    Each street has a “nature strip”; each bungalow faces the same way, has a backyard and a front garden, all fenced, low at the front, high at the back. Somewhere nearby there’ll be a shopping centre with fast-food outlets and a supermarket.

    If your ambition is to live on Ramsay Street, where nobody has ever been heard to discuss a book or a movie let alone an international event, then Australia may be the place for you. But you need to remember that Australians don’t live in each other’s pockets; Neighbours is a fiction. Most Australians don’t know their next-door neighbours or care what becomes of them. Australians are kind but in a thoroughly British, non-committal kind of way.

    It’s different in the countryside — but nobody lives there except a few squatters and graziers, flitting hordes of British backpackers and some remnant populations of Aborigines. Aborigines could teach other Australians how to make living in Oz emotionally and intellectually satisfying, but nobody is going to give them the chance.

    Marooned in oceanic tracts of suburban doldrums, the downtown central business districts don’t expand at all. They still occupy the same tiny nucleus of streets that they did 100 years ago; indeed the Sydney commercial district has actually shrunk in the past 40 years. Australians might refer to rush hour, but there is never any rush. Even at 11am on a weekday you’ll feel no bustle. In what should be the swankiest streets you will find shops with designer names and nothing in them alongside pawnshops and outlets for cheap imports, T-shirts, jeans and plastic homewares.

    In the big emporiums the floors are jammed with overloaded clothes racks as if they were discount stores, but the prices in Australian dollars are huge. Australian wages, on the other hand, are surprisingly low. Many Australian expatriates (and I would include myself) live in Britain partly because they couldn’t earn a decent living in Australia. A British salary will buy a ticket to Australia sooner than an Australian salary for the same job will finance travel to Europe. Australian food prices are low, but just about everything else is, for many, unaffordable.

    The Australian economy is growing, we are told, faster than almost any other. Growth understood as a percentage is related to the initial size of the economy and Australia’s remains tiny, even though it is the world’s largest exporter of coal, iron ore, beef and wool. Coal and iron ore are both obtained by massively mechanised open-cut mining with devastating environmental consequences. The Australian rush to self-destruction is a bewildering phenomenon.

    Why does Australia destroy a greater percentage of its forest each year than all but two other countries on earth? In a mere 200 years one of the most biodiverse systems in the world has been utterly compromised, and for what? Nobody is costing the degradation of fragile ecosystems by grazing or by irrigation for rice and cotton, crops that could never earn their keep unless the Australian dollar remained artificially low.

    As a primary producer, Australia, with high labour costs, is in competition with the poorest nations in the world but we look in vain for any expansion in the manufacturing sector. Most of the manufactured goods on sale anywhere in Australia were made somewhere in Asia, including “Australia’s own car”, the Holden. The one and only Australian software millionaire has gone on record saying that if Australians take a lead in the IT revolution the myth of Australian prosperity will explode, while the very people who could do it are walking away.

    I was 12 years old when I decided that I had to get out of Australia if my life was to begin. I had been bored ever since I could remember. I was ungainly and I was bored by sport, which in Australia is a sure sign that you’re a bad person. In the 13 years that followed before I could actually get away, I managed to get mildly interested in long-distance skiing, mainly as a way to see the alpine country.

    The other great Australian passion is relaxation, and I was even less interested in that. For me to be as good as I could be I needed the pressure of competition, the intellectual cut and thrust, so I came to Cambridge (where, needless to say, I didn’t find it, but that’s another story).

    The real reason I won’t live in Australia, even when Britain has no further use for my services, is that I love the country too much. The pain of watching its relentless dilapidation by people too relaxed to give a damn is more than I can bear. I don’t know how many of my fellow expatriates feel this way, but I’ll bet some do.
    ———————————————————————————————

    #255486
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    Hola Simon,

    Muchas de las cosas que este tipo dice son verdad, otras no tanto…. Pero recuerda que esto esta hecho desde la perspectiva de un Britanico…

    Siempre ha habra gente que habla mal de uno u otro sitio. Yo, no cambio Australia por nada…

    Saludos,

    Enrique./

    #255487
    miguel_g
    Miembro

    esta gente no tiene idea de lo que es vivir en un tercer mundo. Son como niños consentidos que siempre ambicionan más (materialmente, sobre todo, aunque esta mujer enfatice también el aspecto cultural).
    Mi mayor aventura, la de la migración, empieza en un mes, pero creo que luego de año y medio de haber estudiado en Sydney, mi opinión es válida y conozco lo suficiente como para descalificar la mayor parte de lo que aquí se dice.
    Cierto, no es un país altamente industrial y el aspecto ecológico está comprometido por malas decisiones de décadas de descuido, y los salarios no son compables con las libras esterlinas… no entiendo por qué las constantes referencias a Neighbours y el desprecio a la vida suburbana que es igual en casi todo el primer mundo.
    en fin, the grass is always greener on the other side, y cada quien tiene derecho a su opinión, pero a mí me molesta cada vez que oigo habla mal de Australia, mi obsesión y objetivo de vida desde hace casi 4 años.

    #255488
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    Saludos:

    Les aclaro que quien escribe es una periodista Australiana radicada en Inglaterra, obviamente que no creo que se de por enterada de como es la vida de dura en Sudamerica.

    #255489
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    Mmmm…. interesante…. seria bueno saber que opina algun periodista Britanico radicado en Australia…

    Saludos,

    Enrique./

    #255490
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    Supongo que este articulo muestra algunos "aspectos negativos" de la vida en Australia y esta dirigido a lectores ingleses ya que el primer pais de emigracion de los ingleses es Australia, casi todos los ingleses tienen un familiar en Oz y casi todos suenan con vivir alli, por otro lado tengo entendido que hay mas ingleses en Australia que australianos en Inglaterra ademas el Standard de vida es mucho mas alto en Australia y si ustedes como la mayoria incluyendome aspiran a tener una casa relativamente grande con jardines y suficiente espacio para una familia de cinco personas el pais ideal seria Australia, porque la autora del articulo podra ganar mucho en libras esterlinas, pero tiene que pagar mucho mas en vivienda que en Oz (o sera que la autora gano la loteria y ya tiene casa propia en Londres). La referencia a "Neighbours" es porque es una popular soap opera australiana que la trasmiten en la BBC todos los dias alli actuaba Kylie y Dani Minogue antes que fueran famosas como cantantes.
    Lo que quisiera es que alguien que vive en Australia y que conozca la sociedad australiana me responda esta duda, cuando yo vivia en Canada siempre se comentaba que Australia tenia problemas raciales, quisiera saber que tan cierto es esta afirmacion en comparacion con norteamerica.
    De todas maneras no hay pais perfecto en esta tierra pero si hay paises casi ideales para los emigrantes y Australia es uno de ellos. Saludos para los que viven alla y me imagino como deben extranar Venezuela y la familia, pero animo que tenemos Internet y podemos enterarnos de todo al instante.
    Atentamente
    extranjera

    #255491
    miguel_g
    Miembro

    extranjera, sé perfectamente qué es Neighbours y lo popular que es (y fue) en UK. incluso hay tours para los backpackers británicos en Melbourne, para ver Ramsay Street.
    Mi comentario es respecto a la creación de estereotipos utilizando un programa de TV. O acaso diremos que México es como sus telenovelas, o EU es como The OC?

    #255492
    miguel_g
    Miembro

    ah, y Dannii Minogue nunca estuvo en Neighbours. Ahí actuaron Kylie MInogue, Jason Donovan, Natalie Imbruglia y Delta Goodrem.

    #255493
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    Hola a todos,

    Aqui consegui un articulo sobre Germaine Greer. Es del periodico The Age, quizas uno de los mas serios en Australia. Me parece necesario ayuda a darle una mejor perpectiva sobre ella y el articulo anterior

    Mario

    Germaine, go home and shut up
    September 16, 2003

    If Greer’s most recent polemic had been written by a little-known academic it would have struggled to find a publisher.

    Let’s do what we can to discourage ill-informed visitors from giving us their opinions on how we should live, writes Gerard Henderson.

    Perhaps the (many) stories are apocryphal. But it used to be said that international visitors, on arriving in Melbourne or Sydney, were asked by reporters what they thought about Australia. The problem today is that visitors actively seek to proffer their views on Australia and/or Australians – and succeed in being widely reported.

    It’s the phenomenon of the fly-in-fly-out expert. Or FIFOE.

    The Australian expatriate writer and academic Germaine Greer and the British psychiatrist Anthony Daniels are the two most recent commentators on Australia, of the FIFOE school. The former was in Melbourne for last week’s launch of her polemic "Whitefella Jump Up" in Quarterly Essay. The latter gave a talk in Sydney under the nom-de-plum Theodore Dalrymple – which he uses for his Second Opinion column in The Spectator.

    In Greer: Untamed Shrew (Macmillan, 1997) Christine Wallace commented that it was "the performer in Greer which really drove much of her behaviour and, probably, her wilder statements". Certainly the launch of the 20,000-word "Whitefella Jump Up" essay was quite a performance. According to reports, Greer accused Australians of behaving "like peasants" and dismissed all migrants since 1788 as "damaged people spreading their damage".

    There is more of this in the essay. According to England-based Greer, Australia has been "crazily devastated by whitefellas" who are engaged in environmental "madness" thereby "creating an endless nightmare of suburbia from which our kids try to escape by sticking needles in their arms". All of them, apparently. That’s Australia circa 2003 – according to Greer.

    In short, Australians are perceived as being part of a "WASP (as in White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) ‘axis of evil’ ". Readers are also advised about the time "when the Japanese invaded the Northern Territory" – a "fact" that will come as some surprise to historians of the Pacific War of 1941-45.

    Greer’s essay is in the familiar voice of leftist alienation. However, it has been her solutions that have engendered the most interest among the media. The English-based sage has come up with the "modest suggestion" that Australia should recognise "its inherent and ineradicable Aboriginality", establish an "Aboriginal Republic" and become a "hunter-gatherer nation". This would make possible "Australia’s voluntary identification with the largest group in the United Nations, namely the emerging post-colonial republics . . . rather than the eternal flunkeydom that is our present lot".

    In other words, Australia should renounce its traditional links with Britain and the US and strive to link up with Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, Fidel Castro’s Cuba and the like. Really. Meanwhile, Greer will continue to live in so-called "flunkey" Britain and continue to write and perform while we Australians start a life of hunting and gathering.

    There is nothing particularly new in Greer’s proposal. She has raised such matters in recent performances at the centenary of Federation celebrations in London (July 2000) and the Brisbane Festival of Ideas (August 2001). At times the theme has been confusing. For example, Greer has been reported as claiming "I am an honorary Australian Aborigine" (The Sunday Age, January 16, 2000) and "I don’t know what it is to be an Aborigine" (ABC Radio National, July 25, 2000). Now, in Quarterly Essay, she wonders about the "vexing" question as to "whether blackfellas would let us become Aboriginal, whether they would adopt us".

    If Greer’s most recent polemic, which is replete with opinion but light on facts, had been written by a little-known academic or journalist it would have struggled to find a publisher. But fame matters, especially in publishing.

    Greer-as-performer was seen at her best during an appearance on Lateline last Tuesday. It was great entertainment. At least interviewer Tony Jones had the sense to look bemused when Greer declared that "it’s arguable that rich kids are even more unhappy than poor kids". How would she know? Anyway, the performance earned national coverage – primarily due to Greer’s FIFOE status.

    Anthony Daniels, in Theodore Dalrymple mode, writes a lively column in the conservative British magazine The Spectator. As a result, he has quite a following – including in Australia. Moreover, the psychiatrist and prison doctor seems to like Australia, which he compares favourably with his country of birth. Recently in Australia (as Dr Dalrymple) to deliver the Read Loewenthal Oration, he used the visit to reflect on Australia in The Spectator.

    Now, The Spectator carries little material on Australia. So you would expect the editor would make sure that pieces on Australia in the magazine would at least be subjected to basic fact-checking. Clearly the Daniels article, The perils of Pauline Hanson (August 30), was not subjected to such a process.

    To get a glimpse of Daniels’ lack of knowledge of contemporary Australian politics it is not necessary to look beyond two claims in his Spectator piece. He asserted that "Pauline Hanson irrupted on to the Australian politics scene in the early 1990s". The correct date is early 1996. And he attributed to "a former convict" the view that "since Hanson had asked for longer sentences, it was only right that she should receive one" (for breaching the Queensland Electoral Act). In fact, the comment was made by Labor MP Mark Latham. Moreover, Daniels seems unaware that individuals incarcerated in Australia are described as prisoners, not convicts.

    As is to be expected from a FIFOE type, the article contained some hyperbole. Most notably the suggestion that "every Australian" believes "that he is descended, spiritually at least, from convict stock".

    However, the most disturbing howler turned on mandatory detention for asylum seekers – a policy that Daniels attributed to the influence of Hansonism: "She (Hanson) allowed Mr Howard to do what before her advent would have been impossible, namely to restrict Asian immigration by putting would-be immigrants and asylum seekers into camps, where their applications to reside in Australia are lost in the deep entrails of bureaucracy."

    In fact, mandatory detention for unlawful entrants was introduced by the Keating Labor government in 1992 – well before Hanson became a fact of Australian political life. The policy is not directed at Asian immigration – many of those in detention are nationals of Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran. And, whatever criticism can be made about the administration of mandatory detention, applications are not "lost" in the bureaucracy in order to discourage Asia’s "huddled masses" from reaching "Australian shores".

    It seems that nothing can stop famous leftist or conservative visitors setting out their views on matters Australian before returning to northern hemisphere abodes. But the FIFOE lot should not be encouraged.

    Gerard Henderson is executive director of The Sydney Institute.

    #255494
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    En efecto, este es un fenomeno bastante comun en Australia: Un pequeño grupo que aboga por las politicas socialistas y de izquierda, pero que nunca las ha vivido en carne propia.

    Es muy facil ser pro-comunismo mientras se vive en un pais del primer mundo, sin conocer las realidades de paises como la antigua Union Sovietica, Cuba o el resto de los paises comunistas.

    Saludos y suerte,

    Enrique./

    #255495
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro
    #255496
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    Lo que el estándard de vida es "mucho más alto" en Australia es debatible. Pero debemos tener cuidado cuando comparamos. Hablando en general la vida en Australia es más como la vida "en provincia" comparado con, por ejemplo, la vida en Londres o Los Angeles. Entonces obviamente en Australia es más fácil tener una casa con un buen jardín, pero la tecnología y los negocios se hallan más en otros sitios.
    A mi me parece que el artículo pinta bastante bien el porqué muchos dejan Australia (claro que yo como tercermundista sudamericano le agregaría algunas otras cositas). Yo viví en Australia por 8 años y luego me vine a Toronto, Canadá por razones muy parecidas (y otras). Me alegro de haberlo hecho.

    #255497
    Invitado MQI
    Miembro

    hola Carlos espero que puedas leer esto yo estoy en una disyuntiva..Australia o Canadá y veo que tu conoces las dos, si las razones no son muy personales que te impidan mencionarlas por aqui o si me puedes escribior te agradeceria saber que tomaste en cuenta para irte a Canadá,ya yo tengo casi 30 años y adonde me vaya me gustaria que fuera mi destino final,claro tambien tiene qu ever mucho con las perspectivas y expectativas de vida particulares en cada persona,muchas gracias y saludos

    Rafael

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